I realise that this is quite old but thought I'd add my thoughts to this thread.

I actually agree with what Denis Walsh is saying. He isn't making things up or stating random statistics as fact what he has done is present a scientific truth to the public which has then been twisted in the media and read the wrong way.

Basically in labour, the more pain you are in the more oxytocin your body releases. There have been studies and trials where blood is taken to test oxytocin levels to illustrate this. Oxytocin is the hormone which promotes bonding with your baby. If we think about it this therefore means, higher levels of oxytocin= high chance of bonding with baby, higher levels of oxytocin= high levels of pain. Having an epidural blocks the pain + oxytocin release cycle, with an epidural your oxytocin levels will not be as high as they would have been if you had went through labour with no pain relief. Of course there will be lots of exceptions to the norm, people with epidurals who fall in love immediately and those with no pain relief who don't feel love for a long time, I don't think he is suggesting otherwise.

I feel sorry that his comments have provoked a lot of strong responses (not here I'm referring to, more the public in general) regarding the fact that he is male and therefore has no idea. Would we really make such comments about a brain surgeon who has never had surgery on his brain? I don't believe someone has to have gone through everything someone else has to be able to offer empathy and support. Take a female midwife for example who has gone through all her labours with no pain relief and believes all woman should birth this way, do you think this is particularly helpful if you were to request an epidural. What I'm trying to say is the fact that he is male doesn't affect the statements he has made (in my opinion).

I do believe this is an emotive issue as people who have had an epidural become offended at the idea that there was a possibility they could have had a harder time bonding with their baby.

Also, Denis Walsh does not advise epidurals should be banned. What he does advise is that with one-on-one care from a midwife and other pain relief mechanisms (water, massage etc) the need for epidurals would not be so high.

Hope that didn't offend anyone but this issue did annoy me slightly as I do believe people would have paid attention to this research if it had been a female publishing it.

Hiya

Thing is though I can't recall any other kind of pain a woman goes thru that a man doesn't. As a society we do view pain negatively. Have a headache take paracetamol; have toothache see the dentist and have it removed under aneasthesia. I don't think anyone would suggest that we should stop using pain relief for any other forms of pain, so I kind of feel aggrieved when it's women in the throws of labour being focussed on. Things are pressured enough to aim for a natural birth (which was my aim) that the last thing I need is to be told when asking for pain relief is that I can't have it in case I don't bond with the baby.

And yes it is different if it's a man suggesting it (or a woman who has not gone through labour) because no-one can really appreciate the pain of labour until they have experienced it. Like no-one can appreciate the pain of a broken bone unless they've experienced it! They can sympathise and empathise, but really don't know what it's like.

It doesn't mean he isn't qualified to discuss it and report the findings of any research like any other qualified person. But saying such stuff as "Pain in labour is a purposeful, useful thing which has a number of benefits, such as preparing a mother for the responsibility of nurturing a newborn baby.’" How exactly does pain prepare me for the responsibility of nurturing my kids? I am baffled by that. 

I'm all for more natural methods being available, like the hypnotherapy, massage etc. [They too are there to reduce pain though, so how does that affect the oxytocin production?] What I dislike is being told by someone (who has never experienced that pain and never will) that I should just accept it as part of the responsibility of having children. Me, I'm all for choice, whether that be pain relief for wusses like me or yoga for the more hardy types!

Worth noting that Denis Walsh's paper has not been published and is still undergoing peer review. I've searched around for his paper, giving the research behind it, but haven't located it.

x

I hear what you are saying.

Above all things I think choice is the most important thing. When someone has come to the end of their natural coping mechanisms we should not be denying them the choice of an epidural.

I find it hard to compare labour pain and pain from removal of a tooth or similar. I agree both are painful but both in very different ways. Labour pain is natural (of course it's incredibly painful for most people) but it is what nature intended our bodies to do whereas the other examples are 'blips' of nature, something our bodies aren't meant to cope with.

Regarding appreciating the pain of labour once you have been through it, I maintain that I could have a virtually painfree birth and consider your epidural to have been unnecessary because 'it didn't hurt that much for me' (I didn't have a painfree birth btw, and I don't consider your epidural unnecessary as I don't know if you've had one..) Really what I'm trying to say is *noone* knows labour pain other than the mother herself, everyone perceives pain differently, a 10/10 rating on both our scales could be very different, although I know you know that. My point is that if a male isn't qualified to talk about the pain of childbirth I don't think anyone should be.

I admit I too am baffled by the 'pain preparing me for the responsibility of nurturing my kids' I can only hazard a guess that this comes down to the bonding statement. That a mother who has bonded 'deeper' is therefore more aware of the responsibility ahead.. that's a shot in the dark by the way. I look forward to the paper being published and having some of these details clarified. I attempted to find information on when it would be published but it's 'in the works' at the moment so I have no idea. I have been informed that a lot of the research used in this is also shown in this article: Stafford, S (2002) Epidurals: A concern for public health? British Journal of Midwifery 10(6) 364-7. I have no idea if you are able to access that?

Your point about alternative forms of pain relief also lowering oxytocin levels is interesting. I would imagine that as these are 'coping with' pain methods as opposed to 'taking away' pain they do not interfere with the physiological impact of childbirth.

I've really enjoyed this discussion, it's gave me a lot of food for thought.

Hiya again

Why is labour pain more natural than a toothache? Both are natural aren't they? It's just one is a pain we go through in order to have a child (which is seen as a positive thing) and another is due to decay, but both are natural surely? As humans we all have to experience pain at some point as part of living a life. The body releases endorphins to help us cope with that pain but nobody suggests we should just rely on our body producing this pain reliever and nothing else. What is it about having a baby that means we should endure the pain of childbirth? If research shows that oxytocin production is suppressed by pain relief, and that oxytocin is important in effective labour, bonding etc then why not give syntocinon (sp?) alongside pain relief?

Dr Walsh is qualified to talk about it, I'm sure he's eminent in his field, but he still cannot appreciate the pain of labour on a personal level. And I agree that pain is subjective, and no woman's labour is identical. I have an identical twin, she had epidural with her first (back to back labour as both mine were) but a natural home birth with her 2nd and she said the 2nd was far better. And believe me I am all for that!! I'm all for informing women (before they are in labour!) of all types of pain relief or mechanisms for coping with pain so they can make the choice. I guess I just find some of the comments attributed to Dr Walsh patronising, but perhaps I should read his paper in it's entirety before I get on my high horse LOL!

And yes, I am a wuss when it comes to pain. My first labour I so wanted to do it all naturally, birthing pool etc. A home birth wasn't even offered in my area, and there was only one pool at my hospital and that was in use. There were no other natural pain relievers offered like hypnotherapy either (which I've had to have privately over another health issue). If Dr Walsh's comments do nothing else, they should increase these facilities so all women can access them. What I would hate to see is no natural pain relief given to women due to budgets and midwives telling women in labour they can't have an epidural either!

OK, off soap box LOL, normally I'd agree with you but I guess after my last labour the thought of being denied pain relief would send shivers down my spine for the whole 9mth of any future pregnancy.

x 

Hi

Pain is very subjective and different types of pain as well. I walked around with acute appendicits and although I was in pain I could cope with it, I have a fairly high pain threshold and quite a lot of endurance but when I had an infected tooth that kept me up all night I must admit I took every pill going (although I avoid painkillers as a rule). Pain is the body's way of telling you something is wrong or not working properly (not sure how labour pain fits into that definition though).

If women want a natural birth and are happy to cope with breathing exercises, hynotherapy, massage or whatever then good for them. I think these things should definitely be available. But a woman who has every pain relief available shouldn't feel inferior or weak because she needed these things to see her through, a happy healthy mum and baby are the most important things, it is not a competition (although some women make it so) and if both mum and baby are okay then nothing else is important.

I think that whilst I agree with some of Dr Walsh's comments I think his talk of alternative therapies and one to one midwife care is a pipe dream in today's NHS.  

BTW the only thing I could think of that a man suffers but not a woman is an operation on his John Thomas or testicles with no pain relief. Can't see a big demand for that personally lol.